INTERVIEW: 4.08.2018 - Crypto Vinney Video Interview with Matan Field

Video Interview with lead architect @matan for the youtube channel CryptoVinny Crypto Round Table discussing DAOstack, Bitcoin, Ethereum, decentralized governance, and more.


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Crypto Vinny: 00:21 Okay, great. Looks like we’re live. Hi guys. This is Vinny, Crypto Vinny from Crypto Round Table. We’re here with Matan Field, the CEO of DAOstack. How are you?
Matan: 00:35 Very good. How are you doing?
Crypto Vinny: 00:37 Good. Great. Thank you for coming on such short notice, and thank you to all the viewers that could make it. It is really bad time for most of our audience, 1:30 am in the morning, in Australia. If you’re in the US, then it’s also I think 8:30 in the morning as well. You would have just woken up. We’ll get started. Matan, can you please tell us a bit about your background?
Matan: 01:01 Sure. My professional background is coming from the academy, from theoretical physics. I’ve done my bachelor in physics and mathematics. Then I continued for a master and PhD in theoretical physics, in the Weizmann Institute, specifically researched string theories, quantum field theories and generally fundamental theoretical physics. I’ve also continued to post-doc research in parallel to this for the, I would say for the past two decades I was also doing more the hobby, social entrepreneurship.
Matan: 01:41 I founded food cooperative, communal garden, et cetera. And I had special interest in the form of organization and specifically cooperative organizations. That was basically what drove me. Then about … let me see, about five years ago I started thinking about a social ride-sharing application, and I’ve started to work on this project with a few friends, and that’s basically how I discovered the blockchain. Since then in the past four and a half years I’ve been full-time developing applications on top of the blockchain, and specifically with a focus on decentralized organizations.
Crypto Vinny: 02:26 That’s impressive. I guess the next question was how you first heard about cryptocurrency and blockchain, and you mentioned you were working on a social ride-sharing app? Can you tell us a little about that?
Matan: 02:38 Yeah. Basically I had this idea for social ride-sharing and I came together with a bunch of friends, and we started to work on it. That was before I knew about the blockchain, but quickly we kind of had the idea of a blockchain without knowing about it. The idea of having some sort of token metrics system and then someone told me you need to look at this thing called Bitcoin, it was 2013, back then. He also told me that just this month it was November 2013, this kid just published a whitepaper called Ethereum. We’ve looked at it, it was just the same month that Vitalik published his paper and basically I was completely mind blown, and I knew that was exactly the technology that I was looking for.
Matan: 03:28 Basically that was like opening the rabbit hole for me. We continued this project for another year or so. That’s also how I quit the Academy, because of that I became full-time on the blockchain. Then as we went along I realized that my main interest is more about the decentralized organization structure, than the specific app of ride-sharing, and in January '15 I quit the ride-sharing project that was called La’Zooz and founded my own company to build protocols and platforms for decentralized organizations for DAOs, that was January '15. I founded Backfeed with a few friends. Since then basically in the past three plus years I’ve been full-time fully dedicated on building platforms and protocols for DAOs, and DAOstack is sort of iteration on Backfeed.
Crypto Vinny: 04:21 Okay. Wow. So you had quite a lot of experience in it. So, for the last three years, you said you quit the Academy, so is that different to the way you did your PhD?
Matan: 04:32 Yeah, I’ve completed my PhD and continued in research in the Academy. When I discovered the blockchain, I did both for a few months and then I just realized the incredible potential that there is here and eventually decided to quit Academy and focus all in on the blockchain and specifically on DAOs.


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Crypto Vinny: 04:55 Okay, great. Do you invest any cryptocurrencies yourself? If you do, what sort of trader are you?
Matan: 05:01 Well, I would say I’m investor, but not trader. When I heard about Bitcoin, I almost instantly invested all of my money into it.
Crypto Vinny: 05:10 How much did you buy Bitcoin at, if you’re allowed to tell us?
Matan: 05:13 How much what?
Crypto Vinny: 05:15 How much was bitcoin when you first got into it?
Matan: 05:17 I got in when it was $580.
Crypto Vinny: 05:20 $580 U.S. dollars, okay.
Matan: 05:22 Yeah, and then I, when Ethereum came out, I invested much of it in the crowd sale. I think I had good intuition to go in. I wasn’t trading so much, I felt I didn’t have the time because I was rededicated to actually build this project, the DAO, and I just felt that trading would be de-focusing myself and I just kept my tokens in Bitcoin and Ether basically all along.
Crypto Vinny: 05:57 So, you haven’t actually fully invested in any other alt coins or ICOs before?
Matan: 06:03 Actually, I think the only ICO I ever invested in was Ethereum.
Crypto Vinny: 06:08 Oh, well that was the best one right? You did something right. You only need to do one thing right in crypto. That’s great. Just a question we like to ask a lot of people as well, I know you’re not a trader, so maybe it’s a bit harder. How much do you think bitcoin will be valued in January 2020?
Matan: 06:26 Well, of course it’s hard to say. And any one thing that thinks they are certain is wrong, or not wrong; it’s just you know, telling himself. It’s really, really hard to say. I definitely think it’s easier to see a trend, where it’s going generally. January 2020 is very hard, but I’m willing to bet, not bet, to guess that somewhere, let’s see 2020, we have less than two years. I would say Bitcoin could do X five by then.
Crypto Vinny: 07:02 Five X? Okay.
Matan: 07:04 Yeah, five X. I would try 30k.
Crypto Vinny: 07:07 30k. So 30-35k, right, five X. That’s fair, in light of what a lot of people are thinking. Sort of 20-50k mark, which is quite broad. It’s good to know you’re very bullish on it, that’s really what the question’s all about, and how bullish.
Matan: 07:23 By thinking they will do much more than that.
Crypto Vinny: 07:25 Yeah. I’m thinking so, too. Did you think Ether, well actually, I think the question should be framed differently. When do you think will Ether will overtake Bitcoin, or do you think that won’t happen? In terms of market cap?
Matan: 07:36 I think it will happen and I assume that it will happen probably next year.
Crypto Vinny: 07:44 Next year. That’s actually what my guess was, too. By 2019. That’s exciting. It’s good to know we think alike. And just a trail on question. What are your thoughts on the current market performance and when do you think things will turn around?
Matan: 07:59 Yeah, of course I want to say this is not a recommendation of investment.
Crypto Vinny: 08:06 Of course.
Matan: 08:08 Yeah, I mean, the current market performance, I think so … The thing is that… it’s the following the market … of course, in the blockchain space, the market is being driven by two forces, right? By speculation and by utility, right? Now, the point is that so far the vast majority of force that actually driving up is relations, so utility power is almost negligible with respect to speculation. So, at some point the market has to correct itself in a way that utility becomes actually a real power.
Matan: 08:48 So, for example, you can see the amount of Ether that is being used daily and how it’s negligible or not with respect to the trading volume or other forces. So, I would expect … The thing is that, that depends on when would be the first mass-adoption of a real-world application on top of Ethereum, and basically if that comes too late, I think there will be a crash because the market will stop believing in it, and then there will be a crash just because the force will go down, and it will crash until the utility value basically goes up; but, however, if the mass-adoption of one application will become before that crash, then we just simply won’t see it. So, it will just go up. And it’s very hard to say because I think that the utility horizon is very near. I will expect that we’ll see the first DApp in mass-adoptions somewhere around this year. But then again, I would also expect that if we don’t see it, we’ll also see the crash this year.
Matan: 09:58 So, it’s really tight, so there is some chance that we’ll see a big crash and then rise up, and there is some chance we see the crash, but just the opposite; we’ll see just the rise up. I think both of them will happen this year, so I think we’ll see … My expectation is that we’ll see dramatic change somewhere along this year.
Crypto Vinny: 10:16 That’s a very insightful perspective, so when you say a crash, I guess you mean in terms of the total market cap. Are we talking about something that might go sub-100 billion or you mean like Ethereum going down into a very low number, like the low 200 or even 100 perhaps?
Matan: 10:31 Yeah, I think that if we don’t see mass-adoption in the next year, for example, we will definitely see Ethereum going down. Another thing that could, of course, push it up again is a technology term called breakthrough such as scalability, but the point is, it all goes together because if you have the closure to break through scalability, you’ll also probably have mass adoption of some applications. So, it goes together. The only question is about the time scales. How long you take for the first mass-adoption will take place. Actually, I would like to suggest that, DAOstack may be that first mass-adoption, of course.


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Crypto Vinny: 11:12 That’s right 'cause you guys are launching, I think that mainnet within the next 90 days actually, so what we’ll come to that in a little bit. So, now we’ll start…
Matan: 11:22 The mainnet is launching this week, but yeah, we’ll have it public in three months.
Crypto Vinny: 11:22 Oh, that is great, yeah.
Crypto Vinny: 11:27 Yeah, 'cause I was listening to another … speaking doing some research, and I heard the alpha prototype was live.
Crypto Vinny: 11:34 Before we start that question, can you just explain to viewers about what is the DAOstack and what your protocol is aiming to accomplish?
Matan: 11:45 So, DAOstack is, as its name it’s a full-stack in a platform, if you want, for DAOs for Decentralized Autonomous Organizations. More generally for any organization, and if you want a little bit more specifically, for any collaboration or corporation at scale. So, there is this thesis that a new for of collaboration, like literally, spontaneous collaboration of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people is possible, and it’s possible with the blockchain. The blockchain allows for logarithmic cooperation, but you need to have some sort of human cooperation as well, which we call decentralized governance system.
Matan: 12:26 So, you need to encode on top of the blockchain different forms of governance, different forms of rules of games, to allow people to play together nicely. This is exactly what DAOstack provides, so first thing we’re providing a more low-level layer, which is the ability to code any governance system, so, kind of like I would say, it’s like the WordPress for organizations, so just as with WordPress, it’s an upward protocol, and you can build … you can use existing templates and modules and plugins and build websites easily in the same way you can use the low-level layer of the DAO stack, which we call Arc, and you can build with it easily and configure governance systems for any sort of organizations, so these are like low-level, but then we build more layers in the stack, and basically it’s a full suite of tools to build and deploy organizations, and including also this special protocol that we’ve designed over the course of four years that allow for the alignment of incentive of large crowds into spontaneous corporation. At scale, which also require to solve, and we do so with scalability problem of governance systems.
Crypto Vinny: 13:37 Okay, so the main goal is the scalability issue of the governance systems?
Matan: 13:43 Yeah.


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Crypto Vinny: 13:43 Great. And a lot of people, I guess is a question a lot of people ask, but can you explain exactly what DAO stands for and what it means?
Matan: 13:53 Sure. DAO is a decentralized autonomous organization. You can call that in many different names. DAO just cut, as a trendy name and we decided to keep it. Also, we think that it sounds very well. It sounds very like the Tao, the Tao Te Ching, like the Chinese Tao.
Crypto Vinny: 14:14 Yeah.
Matan: 14:16 So, we really like the name, and we just chose to keep it, so DAO is decentralized autonomous organization. Practically, what it means … It really means a new form of organization or a new form of human association, so think about existing organizations for example. So, an existing organization, they have their internal decision-making system. They have internal structure, hierarchical rigid structure, right? CEOs, the board of directors, and departments and so on and so forth. Now, that’s how we make the organization for thousands of years, and it works, and it’s great, but what’s brought us here. The problem though is that these kind of structures are not very effectively scalable, like when you grow organization, they become less and less effective, less and less flexible. They become more rigid, more friction, less align of interest, like employees of very large companies have very little engagement and alignment with the actual company and its interests, and they become basically, less and less effective.
Matan: 15:19 But they are very coherent; they are able to do things and accomplish missions. Now, if you want … Just to compare that, the other way to think about coordination of crowds is actually free-markets, like free-markets is another way to coordinate` large number of people, and it’s kind of like just the opposite. Free-markets become more and more effective when they grow. They are most effective when they are infinitely grown. But however infinite crowds in a free-market cannot be directed in order to achieve certain mission. The crowd just, the economy, free-market economy just grows, so the DAO is this combination of markets and organizations, which is a spontaneous coordination of large number of crowd, sorry, large number of people in a crowd that is basically driven by market forces. The coordination is driven by market forces, and thus is much more scalable.
Matan: 16:17 So, think of millions of people without anyone actually coordinating; think of them as making a decentralizing insurance network, so insuring each other without a centralized company in the middle. That would be one form of a DAO. But you can also think of hundreds of dollars, hundreds of thousands of open-source developers that, again, without anyone directing them, simply and spontaneously cooperating on producing certain applications, and et cetera, et cetera. Basically any form of, any use case that we know of today can be replaced by a decentralized crowd that is incorporating by economic incentive rather than a rigid structure, hierarchy structures.
Crypto Vinny: 16:59 Okay. That’s good; it’s a great answer. Moving on from that, do you think it’s possible to have a DAO structure or a DAO blockchain?
Matan: 17:09 I don’t think so, and that’s why we haven’t seen it. So, basically the … Maybe, let me, a little bit, expand on it. The way to actually achieve the DAO, a form of life if you want, is via crypto-economics. So, crypto-economics is the design of, well, crypto, in terms of token, but token economic incentive, so it’s a design of token economic incentives at the individual level that drives each of us towards certain actions that is designed in a sophisticated way, such that in the macroscopic level, in the collective level it’s generating emergence spontaneous corporation.
Matan: 17:59 So, for example Bitcoin is crypto-economics, right? You say, whoever downloads and runs this and that software makes those tokens, which then later will be having some sort of value, and then people are just doing that, and then you generate at the macroscopic and the collective level, you generate suddenly a blockchain.
Matan: 18:20 So, in the same way you can actually redesign the critical economic incentives to achieve basically any sort of collective behaviors you want. And, in particular corporation around any goal, so this is the DAO, but it relies … At the root of it, it relies on the ability to design crypto-economic incentives, and crypto-economic incentives are designable via blockchain, and specifically programmatic blockchain such as Ethereum.


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Crypto Vinny: 18:44 Okay, okay. So can you tell us, when did you first start on DAOstack?
Matan: 18:49 So, again, I started to work on DAO protocols in 2014, already through the La’Zooz project, the ride-sharing, and then in January '15, I started full-time just to work on DAOs, that was within Backfeed. We’ve raised a private capital from Angels, we’ve worked for 18 months, and at June 2016, I was the CEO, and lead scientist, and June 2016, we’ve frozen the corporation; there are many ways, and I’m happy to share, sorry, the many reasons why we stopped the operation, and I’m really happy to share about it if people are interested, and then I took few months to refocus the exact product that we are building, and also to find new partners, in particular, I was interested to find a stellar technological partner.
Matan: 19:46 So all of this time I didn’t have a technology partner, and I’m more of a scientist, the theories, the protocol, designer, architect, but I don’t have a heavy technological background. I know how to code, but it’s not my expertise, so I knew that they had to have a deep blockchain technologist, and that’s exactly what I’ve done in the next six months, and I’ve found Adam Levi, who actually, I know from academia as well. He also had his PhD in physics, but then he also have over 20 years experience in code.
Matan: 20:18 And then we basically decide to join forces, and in January 2017 we founded DAOstack, and restarted the whole code base from scratch, and this code base is basically been written since then, so it actually started even in December 2016, so DAOstack is effectively 16 months old. But if you look it as a continuation of Backfeed, it’s about three plus years old.
Crypto Vinny: 20:50 Okay, so it was about three and a half years ago you were working on a different code and then, about 15 or 16 months ago you converted and launched through DAOstack out of strategy. In terms of Levi, he’s the CTO, right?
Matan: 21:04 Correct.


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Crypto Vinny: 21:04 Yeah, great, and just going on from the earlier question: I heard from someone else you guys are in alpha or you were planning on releasing the beta in 30 days, and the mainnet in 90, but I think from what you’ve said, the timeline’s actually a lot faster than that. Can you tell us about where you guys are in the upcoming roadmap?
Matan: 21:21 Yeah, we’re launching the alpha literally this week, I mean, it’s already ready. It’s already waiting for launching; we’re just preparing the piloting operation, so I think it’s actually starting this week, and then it could be quiet internal pilot for a couple of weeks and then external public, more public pilot. So, we are ready with the DAOstack itself, including the special, large-scale decentralized governance protocol that we call holographic consensus including the JavaScript, the API layer, which means that anyone can connect with, can configure and open and operate a DAO directly from JavaScript.
Matan: 22:05 And then, also including the first interface that we have built, so we have built Alchemy and Alchemy is the first interface for DAOstack, which is, right now, an application for the decentralized budgeting and rewarding of open source projects, so all of this together is going to be launched this week on the mainnet. Again, internally, and in a few weeks, two or three weeks, publicly. And we are going to start running real experiments, like real projects using this tool, and we are going to be the first ones, so we are going to actually start using our own tool in order to engage a much larger decentralized crowd in further developing and expanding the project. And then, we have also our partners, which are going to also adopt it, and one of them that is already subscribed for an experiment is Gnosis.
Crypto Vinny: 23:00 Yeah, that was a good explanation, so you mentioned that the alpha’s coming out and the beta’s coming out in a couple of weeks, so you’ll be ready to go to market by then or it’s still gonna be a little bit further away?
Matan: 23:15 We are going to go to market gradually, so we are going to work with our application in house for a few weeks, and we’ll do very rapid piloting, so we’ll have probably few tens, maybe few hundreds of participants, and we’ll get feedbacks, and we’ll see how fast we’re doing iterations, so we’ll expand it into other projects that we are already speaking with gradually. To be realistic, I believe that we’ll be actually in the market in two, three months from now.


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Crypto Vinny: 23:48 Two to three months. That’s great. Well, that’s a really good timeline. That’s a lot faster than most projects, which is another reason why a lot of people have been very interested in DAOstack. That really puts you ahead of a lot of the competition currently. Okay. Great. Let’s see, I think that’s most of the questions that we’ve had some of the earlier viewers ask, so I’ve just got some questions here. So, it’s says here from Gabriel: DAOstack is a protocol, and it’s also capable of hosting DApps, which I also saw on the website. Can you explain how that works as I thought you could either be a protocol or a blockchain platform that DApps could launch on?
Matan: 24:27 Let’s understand what DAOstack enables. So, you see, there are many different decentralized applications, and generally, you can separate these things into two categories. So, some sort of applications, the interaction … You know, actually, let me, give you three categories. So, one kind of decentralized application, the interaction, in which is purely peer to peer. For example, every market application, whether it’s e-commerce, or whether it’s ride-sharing; it’s a marketplace, right? In the ride-sharing, there is a rider and driver. In e-commerce there’s a seller and buyer. So, it’s a peer to peer application. So, any peer to peer application does not require or doesn’t have to require a decentralized governing system or collective decision-making process. So, this is one type of applications. Those DApps, they don’t need governing systems. I mean, they could be enhanced with governing system, but they don’t have to have them.
Matan: 25:34 The second type is DApps that does have decentralized interactions more than just peer to peer, but these interactions are fully algorithmic. For example, the blockchain itself, right? So, a lot of minors are interacting constantly, and reaching a consensus about something, but all of the process to get to consensus about something is fully algorithmic; it’s not really a process of human beings; it’s a process of machines, so it’s a network/machine consensus, right?
Crypto Vinny: 26:04 Yeah.
Matan: 26:04 And then you can have many others. So, for example, prediction market is another example. Prediction market is also not peer to peer; it’s a fully decentralized application, but it’s fully algorithmic. It’s algorithmic in the sense that the only input that people are giving into the system is an input that the machine can assess, so buying and selling stock is something that people can assess, and so on and so forth.
Matan: 26:29 But then there is the third category, and in fact, if you actually map the use cases, this third category is the biggest, so most interesting use cases, they’re required to have some sort of decentralized interaction between people who need to reach a consensus, but it’s the consensus not about things like a machine can assess, and decide about. It’s a consensus that people need to actually agree about, so it’s a human network consensus. For example, decentralized insurance network. You need to have some sort of decentralized claim management system that decides if an insurance sue is real or not; how much to compensate; and so on and so forth.
Matan: 27:09 It can be any centralized fund management. Again, there is a decentralized decision-making system to agree how much to invest in which company. It can be decentralized colaboration. It can be a decentralized curation market, and so on and so forth. So, each and every use case requires some sort of collective decision making, need to have that component, this collective decision making. Now, there are many, many use case, but so far, there is no good decentralized collective decision-making process at scale. There is simply none, and there is a good reason for that. It requires very sophisticated technology and very sophisticated game-theoretic protocol. So, what we have done in DAOstack is to design this kind of like, engine, if you want, a sandbox from which you can build any … So anyone can connect with and integrate with, and it’s right out of the box that this collective decision making system, and basically integrate it into their own application.
Matan: 28:01 So, an ambition of us developing our own in-house application, we are also offering that engine into many other applications, and already several of them are pipelined into integrating with the stack.


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Crypto Vinny: 28:14 You did mention in an earlier post on your website partnerships with Gnosis and Endor. Are you able to tell us about how you’re working with … I guess you’re partnering with both companies, and it, exactly what you guys will be doing with that?
Matan: 28:30 Sure. So, with Gnosis it’s more, yeah, it’s a multi-dimensional partnership. Firstly Gnosis is our first leading investor in the project, and also Martin Koppelmann, the CEO and then the nature of the partnership is really a true need of each other’s technology, so basically, we plan to integrate their prediction markets into our governance framework, and they are planning to use our governance systems into their products. But more interestingly, they actually have a true need … By the way, that’s actually a true need almost of any successful blockchain project. You know, blockchain projects today have, well a successful one have almost, I would say, unlimited capital, right? They sit on hundred of millions of dollars in capital, so capital is no longer the bottleneck for growth. Then they have thousands, or tens of thousands of community members, so HR is no longer the bottleneck for growth.
Matan: 29:36 So, the only bottleneck for growth, for those projects, and specifically, it’s true for platforms, and I will tell you why, is actually collective decision making at scale. So, just as Ethereum would have the same problem, Gnosis has the same problem. They have infinite capital, infinite community members, and they really want to incentivize people to build on top of their platform, applications. For example Gnosis wants to encourage their open source developers to contribute and build applications on top of the Gnosis platform, and then they have a lot of capital to incentivize for that, but the actual bottleneck is the decisions to be made of how to deploy that capital to which teams and to which applications. That’s the true bottleneck right now for Ethereum, and that’s a true bottleneck right now for Gnosis. So, Gnosis is basically subscribed for one of the earliest experiments using Alchemy to distribute capital into, cooperating teams into contributors on their platform in a decentralized fashion and scalable fashion.
Crypto Vinny: 30:43 Okay, that’s really great to know that Gnosis is one of the early investors at DAOstack, and they’re working very closely with you guys as well. I guess there’ll be a joint press release going out for that later on in the year. 'Cause I think from what I heard, there hasn’t been any sort of announcement from their end yet.
Matan: 31:01 Yeah. No, no, we haven’t yet announced officially the partnership. We don’t have yet, also timeline, so I don’t want to commit for anything, but that’s the plan. I think we actually don’t want to offer anyone else to use the application before we are using for some time, so we want to firstly eat our own dog food, iterate on it, fix the bugs, improve. And also, and most importantly, just simply show to other projects that what we are saying is actually happening, which means that if we are claiming that we have a system for decentralized management of funds in a scalable way, we wanna prove that, that’s indeed the case. So, we are going to use it ourselves for a while and then offer it for external experiments. We are speaking with quite a bunch of them.
Crypto Vinny: 31:56 Okay, and can you also explain about how you guys are working with Endor?
Matan: 32:02 Sure, Endor is more, I would say … Also, Gnosis is a friendship based partnership. I know Martin for years, but Endor is a more friendship, I mean, it’s more alignment of interest and support between the projects. We are actually, geographically, very nearby, and we are also coming from similar background, both of us coming from the academy. And we have a lot of parallel directions we are looking after, and the idea was firstly to align interests, then support each other, so we are literally supporting each other in different … We come more from the blockchain space. They come more from a … They just basically moved into the blockchain space recently, so we’re complimentary in our powers, and we support them, and they support us. And then the third part, which is yet to the future, we are basically speaking about possible integrations. We’re speaking about possible, even joint venture, but it’s not yet computized, so it’s nothing I can really announce.
Crypto Vinny: 33:15 Okay, that’s fair. Yeah, I think I was speaking to the guy from Endor. He’s over in Tel Aviv; you’re just nearby in Israel as well.
Matan: 33:23 So, actually, yeah, the company’s in Tel Aviv, but actually, he lives just next to our office in another town.


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Crypto Vinny: 33:30 That’s great. There’s a question here from David, so DAOstack is an operating system that means it’ll be capable of hosting blockchain apps. Is it going to be the same like Elastos at all?
Matan: 33:42 No, it’s not an operating system in the terms of that. It’s an operating system in terms of the governance. It’s an operating system, but it’s not for DApps really. It’s an operating system for organizations. So, it’s not a suite of building tools for DApps. It’s a suite of tools to build organizations. So, the decision-making processes, et cetera.
Crypto Vinny: 34:09 Okay, and will your protocol be available to be used with all types of … I guess on any blockchain, or is there gonna be a limited just Ethereum?
Matan: 34:18 Well, right now it’s limited to Ethereum because that’s the only blockchain that we can actually use for our protocols, but once more blockchains are maturing up, we definitely have … In principle, we definitely want to be blockchain agnostic.
Crypto Vinny: 34:34 Okay, so you can be. What’s preventing someone from using the protocol and say Neo or Icon or on of the upcoming platforms that have had a couple of DApps launched in the last year?
Matan: 34:48 Sure. I don’t think anything is stopping us from doing that. It’s just a matter of maturity. I don’t think right now there is any mature blockchain, not only in terms of the operation or the operability of the blockchain and scalability. But there is also, in terms of developer tools, integration environments, and so on and so forth. Ethereum has done a huge amount of journey, of path in the last three or four years. It’s by far the most mature, and right now, I would say only viable blockchain to work on. So, we definitely are going to work on more blockchains but just when they get more mature and alive.


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Crypto Vinny: 35:36 Okay. I think a lot of people will agree with you on how Ethereum’s probably the only mature blockchain at this point. Question here from James: So, who do you feel your competitors are and what is stopping other projects from emulating what you guys are doing?
Matan: 35:52 Well, competitors, there are now many. It’s a very hot trend right now. Aragon is probably the biggest competitor. I usually don’t like to call them competitors. I would call them colleagues. We’re also in connection. There are Colony; there are Harbor, and several others. I think many of them eventually will integrate, and cooperate rather than compete, and maybe a few will compete. I think different projects, if you look at them, although from the outside it looks similar, if you look at them inside, you will see that most of these projects have very different focus. Even if they have a similar focus, they have very different architecture, and they’re very different, no, I would say direction and team.
Matan: 36:39 So, yeah, our strength if you wish, is our design philosophy. So, I think all projects in the space basically started top down, which means that they first build an interface, and then say, okay, but the value’s in the protocols, so they build the protocols, and they say, Oh, but it’s really … There’s not way to understand the right protocol, whether this is the right protocol, so we’ll build a platform from which you can build any protocol. And we’ve started our process after already two years of research and development, we realized that and just went the other way around.
Matan: 37:11 We did bottom up, so we firstly build our platform and framework, for which you can build any protocol, and then we designed a protocols, and the API layers and then the interface. So, it’s a different architectural philosophy, and I think that’s also our strength. I think we are architects. Both Adam and I are … We’ve been following blockchain full-time, closely in the past five years. We are architects in our background, and [inaudible 00:37:38] our professional background and expertise, and that’s how we think. So, that’s one way to think about it. Another way is protocols, I think we have vast experience in protocol, in DAO protocol design. Designing again, that’s something that I’m doing for life, for living, for the past four years, and I think we have by far the deepest understanding of how DAO protocols look like.
Matan: 38:05 No, of course, any other protocols can emulate that, but you need to remember two things. Firstly … Well three things. Firstly, different projects have different focuses, so that’s the nature of it, and different projects will go in two different directions. We, for example, we have the focus of a very large scale organizations, rather than trying to focus on all … I mean, to fit all organization or to focus on small organization. So, that’s one, so the different projects will have different focuses.
Matan: 38:33 Number two, it’s very hard to emulate things easily because once you’ve set up architectures, when you have different architecture, they can do different things. So, it’s not that it’s very easy. We have a code base of 16 months. It’s one of the, I think, most vast code bases of the Ethereum blockchain right now. It’s not something you can easily get your hands on and ride from there. So, that’s number two.
Matan: 39:00 And number three, at the end of the day, the only thing that protects an open source projects–and that’s true for any of them–is a network effect. And we have in our business modeling, our token utility model. We have a very strong defendable, defensible network effect, and I think that once we establish a network of DAOs around DAOstack, I think that will basically … Not very easy to compete with just as you have the same thing with Ethereum, right? Once you’ve got the network effect of Ethereum minors, basically you had probably hundreds of forks and trials so compete with, but none of them succeeded in the early days, and only later, now do you have serious competitors, not so many, but you have serious competitors, but it’s … All of them, they took different directions that allow them to differentiate them from Ethereum. No competitor that actually tried to do the same Ethereum was even close to make it.
Crypto Vinny: 39:50 Okay. Question here from James, oh, actually from Sammy: Do you think the DAO idea is very far away from real world implementation?
Matan: 40:03 No, I think it’s not far away at all. I think it’s a … I would be careful to say that it’s very near, but I think that it’s nearer, much nearer than we think.


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Crypto Vinny: 40:15 Great. Another question here from James: How many more people will you add in the future on the technical side of things?
Matan: 40:22 Right now we have a technical team of about maybe seven, something like that. And we want to add in two ways. Firstly, once … Right now we are very focused on launching the product. We are very focused on the campaign and the token sale, but once we end with that, we are definitely going to expand the team. I don’t want to commit about numbers, but I’ll just throw a suggestion. Again, that’s also totally in the hands of Adam, the CTO, but basically, I think that we will probably double the team over the course of a few months, at least that. So, that’s one thing.
Matan: 41:02 The second thing is that we are going to use our own platform in the project, which means that there will be a real fund of Ether and Gen tokens that will be allocated to contributors of the project, and the contributions will be curated by the crowd, so I would hope to see tens and hundreds and thousands of developers are starting to work and push that project and be compensated accordingly.
Crypto Vinny: 41:24 I have a question here from David: It looks like a few of the ICOs are using DAOstack already. Is that correct?
Matan: 41:34 No, there is no ICO using DAOstack. There are a few applications that are going to integrate with the stack, and then they can choose once they do that. They can choose if they want to ICO also because you can also ICO … An ICO is basically an economic plugin in the DAOstack framework. So, we can do that as well whether they choose it later to do it or not, it’s still yet to be seen. We are definitely going to support that for the projects coming on top of the platform, which means that we’ll have modules specifically, many modules specifically for ICO, but more so … The DAOstack ecosystem and the DAOstack team and the DAOstack fund will support projects, DAOs that come on top of the stack and also, in particular, with the ICOs.


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Crypto Vinny: 42:22 Okay. This question a few people have asked: Earlier on you did mention that the only project that was similar to you would probably be Aragon. How would you compare to them and differentiate yourself?
Matan: 42:38 Yeah, so again, I’m not too worried about that. I think different projects, they have similar visions, but they’re very different picture, very different skill set, very different focuses. I’m not trying to differentiate from them. We’re trying to do where we do our best. In fact, Aragon started as I said, it started building an interface, then a protocol, then the platform that they just now built. We just did the opposite, so we did a platform, then framework, then a protocol, then an interface. So, this is one big differentiator. It matters a lot to the architecture.
Matan: 43:15 Also, another thing that Aragon started from small scale. If you look at a first algorithm application, it’s designed for basically companies on the blockchain, and now they are also going more to the DAO scale, so large networks and trying to look for new protocols for that. And again, we did large scale organization protocols from the outset, so I would say that our first differentiator is by design philosophy, focus, and then, of course, maturity of code base because we have been working on that specific code base for the past 16 months.
Matan: 43:48 And it also … I think, like, strong in differentiator for example is the protocols. We have very distinct protocols. We call the holographic consensus. They are simply not similar to anything else that I’ve seen in the space. And definitely not similar to anything that Aragon is doing. And then, yeah, so, I would say that, that’s a big distinct, so that’s … And the use of that, which is large scale coordination.


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Crypto Vinny: 44:19 Okay, thank you. We’ll probably wrap up soon 'cause I know you’re quite busy, so just a couple of questions here: Can we hear more about the ICO that you’re launching? But someone here TeaDuchess asked if you’ve got any information about the new … You’re gonna be having new advisors?
Matan: 44:37 Yeah, we will have new advisors, I mean, right now we have a few that are in here now. We’ll have a few more, but yeah, we haven’t announced yet that we’ll have … We’re going to have a few more advisors. We already have like three or four. We’re gonna have a few more.
Crypto Vinny: 44:56 Any notable advisors worth mentioning currently?
Matan: 45:00 Sorry?
Crypto Vinny: 45:01 Any notable advisors worth mentioning currently?
Matan: 45:06 Well, right now our core advisors … So, we have basically Jordan Greenhall, which was an early advisor of mine. He’s also an early investor. He’s one of the really pioneers, I think, of the decentralization movement, not necessarily from the blockchain perspective, but more so from the … Actually, you know the early internet decentralization movement. He was also the CEO and co-founder of DivX, a co-founder of, so that’s one of our main advisors. We also have Daniel Schmachtenberger, who is not: I’m not sure if the audience knows him. He’s not coming from the blockchain space, but I think he’s one of the … He’s actually really one of the leading thinkers in terms of all of the direction of anti-rival economy, which is exactly why we’re trying to produce an economy that coordinates people and produce collaboration at scale. I think he’s actually literally one of the leading thinkers in that space, and we are really honored to have him on board with us. Yeah, and we have a few more, but we’ll announce that when we are ready with that.
Crypto Vinny: 46:23 Okay. I just want to clarify, as well, how much you guys are raising for the ICO. 'Cause I think I was told if an ICO drops, this is a 30 million hard cap, but I think we … We spoke earlier, and you mentioned that the raise is strictly in ETH evaluation only?
Matan: 46:39 No, we are raising 30 million dollars. We translate 30 million dollars into Eth at the token generation event, so whatever Eth, then that will be our 30 million dollars, so right now it’s about 80,000 Ether; it might change, although, it’s coming very soon. The public sale is coming very, very soon. This month in fact. So, that’s what we are raising.
Matan: 47:06 Yeah, we’ve already raised some nice portion of it and much more is coming soon, and I’m happy to answer more questions about the token metrics or anything.
Crypto Vinny: 47:17 Okay, great. Well, I know that you’re closing the private pre-sell, and you’re going over to … I think it’s a public pre-sell and then main ICO, that’s beginning in the April 24th, is that right?
Matan: 47:30 Yeah, I mean we are still fine-tuning the exact date, but yeah, it’s … It was planned for April 24th. We actually fine-tuning the exact date probably today, but it will be between April 24th … I mean, it’ll be definitely the week starting from April 24th and possibly a few days or a week after.
Crypto Vinny: 47:53 Okay, and just a finishing question here. A lot of people always asked about when tokens are planned to be released as well. Usually a couple weeks after ICO. Have you guys finalized that at this point in time?
Matan: 48:04 Finalized what? Can you say again?
Crypto Vinny: 48:06 When you’re planning to release the tokens after the ICO is concluded.
Matan: 48:10 Yeah, we are planning to release the tokens right after the ICO. Or we usually like to call it token sale. Maybe I should say a bit more about token metrics. So basically, we are minting 40 million Gen tokens for all sales, starting from the private sale, the first private sale, which was November 2017. Again, the first investor was Gnosis, and all the way to the public sale. So, all together this will be 40 million Gens for 30 million dollars. And then, there’s another 10 million Gen tokens that are minted for existing contributors, founders, contributors, employees, free-lancers, advisors, everyone share 10 million Gen tokens all of which is locked up for a two years, invested over three years.
Matan: 49:07 And then there’s another 10 million tokens that will be held by the non-profit, by the DAOstack non-profit for benefit for future contributions in business development, and then, lastly, not minted right now, but basically, the Genesis DAO, which will be the first DAO founded on top of the DAOstack, and to be actually managing part of the funds raised, and the growth of the ecosystem. So, that DAO will be able to mint an additional 40 million tokens over the course of many years. So, this is kind of like the mining if you want a dilution over time. Yeah, so this is roughly the token allocations.


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Crypto Vinny: 49:50 Okay. Just an interesting question here that we’ll just squeeze in from [inaudible 00:49:53]: I was wondering what type of governance you’re gonna implement for the DAOstack itself?
Matan: 49:59 Yeah, we are going to implement our unique governance system, which we call holographic consensus and specifically, the first protocol, we’ll be naming the Genesis Protocol. Maybe I haven’t emphasized, but there is unique feature in that governance system, which is combining the notion of meritocratic reputation based decision making, voting processes together with token based predictions market. And they, actually combine together to produce coherent but scalable governing systems, and all of the …
Matan: 50:38 So all of the DAOs that will come on top of the DAOstack will require using the Gen tokens for this prediction market in order to support large scale decision making. So, basically, the Gen token will be the fuel, the gas for large scale decision-making and processes on top of the DAOstack for the entire DAO ecosystem. So, this is also the utility model for the Gen token.
Crypto Vinny: 51:02 Oh, okay, and do you have any closing questions or comments you’d like to say to the viewers?
Matan: 51:08 No, I’m fine.
Crypto Vinny: 51:10 No worries. Well, Matan, thank you for your time. This is Crypto Vinny, and I hope you enjoy … I think you’ve got dinner coming up now, so thank you for your time, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
Matan: 51:20 Thank you very much. Bye.
Crypto Vinny: 51:22 Bye.